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Hunting Main Board => Bow Hunting => Topic started by: MOSPARKY on March 03, 2013, 11:22:17 PM

Title: I stepped in it now
Post by: MOSPARKY on March 03, 2013, 11:22:17 PM
On a Missouri hunting forum (owned by a seldom active member here)a member recieved a survey from the state. One of the questions was wheither or not crossbows should be allowed during bow season. He in turn posted a topic asking opinions.
 There was a time when I would have answered with a flat NO !! But being a man of reason and BC being the well informed and fact based proponent for the sport, I quickly saw the error of my ways. I now fully support the use of crossbows in areas where legal and support their legalization in areas where they are not.
 I have shot xbows and find I prefer the compound longbows but that's no reason someone else can't use one.
 Most people over there are all for it, but there are a few detractors. This is not an arguement I'm prepared to lose. Thanks to facts posted by mostly Bo and BC here I have shot some pretty good size holes in their arguements.
 Thank you BC and Bo for the wealth of info and points of consideration you have both posted on this topic. They have been an insipiration in my responces.
 If I am to educate the few hold-outs I may need a bit more info. I'll even take any sound con info. Gotta be extra sure of my footing before I over step myself.
 Whatcha got in the way of hard evidence and fact ??
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: bohicajuan on March 04, 2013, 04:02:13 AM
No problemo amigo! O0 O0

If the compound users try giving you grief, just tell them to give up the compound and go back to recurves and long bows. That will shut most of them up.

But You can also remind them that the Black Widow is made in Missouri!! :wink: :wink: O0 O0
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: bohicajuan on March 04, 2013, 04:05:05 AM
If you run into some real hard core types who wont support crossbows during the regular bow season, by ALL MEANS invite them over here. Tell them to show how brave and how much guts they really have by trying to shovel that manure here!! :wink: :wink: O0 O0
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: John Andrews on March 04, 2013, 10:50:21 AM
If you run into some real hard core types who wont support crossbows during the regular bow season, by ALL MEANS invite them over here. Tell them to show how brave and how much guts they really have by trying to shovel that manure here!! :wink: :wink: O0 O0
  O0 Good idea!
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 04, 2013, 10:58:39 AM
Glad to see you're trying to talk some sense into those folks Mo.  O0

There really is no good reason NOT to allow crossbows during the entire archery season.  The primary argument that the anti's use is that the herd will be decimated.  This has been proven time and again to be untrue.  Statistics show that the harvest rates with crossbows are on par with those of vertical bows.  And any way you go at it, bows of any type are NOT the tool of population control that F&W departments count on, it's guns.

The primary reason TO allow full inclusion of crossbows is recruitment & retention of hunters.  Crossbows have been proven to be an excellent tool to get kids in the woods with.  They take less skill/time to master than a vertical bow and not to mention, don't require as much strength.  Early archery seasons are held in warmer weather than gun seasons, so kids won't freeze when they go out, making their experience more enjoyable.  The same reasons listed above also hold true for hunters later in life.  When it comes time that an older hunter can no longer pull their bow, it's either give up hunting or take up a crossbow.  A lot of older people can't take the cold weather either.  A third aspect of this is the fractured family structure that occurs quite a bit these days.  You have grandparents that hunt (or used to hunt), but a father/mother that doesn't hunt (but isn't opposed to it, and a child that wants to learn.  Full inclusion of crossbows in the archery season will allow the grandfather to take the child out when it's warmer.  O0

Here's some links for further info:

North American Crossbow Federation
http://www.northamericancrossbowfederation.com/ (http://www.northamericancrossbowfederation.com/)

Crossbow Fundamentals
http://www.northamericancrossbowfederation.com/files/CROSSBOW%20FUNDAMENTALS%20-LOW%20RES%206-7-12.pdf (http://www.northamericancrossbowfederation.com/files/CROSSBOW%20FUNDAMENTALS%20-LOW%20RES%206-7-12.pdf)

Once the PDF opens up, you can click in the upper left corner on the disc icon and save it to your computer.  If the icon isn't there, go to File, and then Save As to save to your computer.

Of particular interest, notice the chart on page 7.  Notice how the crossbow harvest mimics the vertical bow harvest, with the exception of younger hunters, which had a higher percentage of harvest.  Isn't a successful harvest a good thing instead of a wounding loss?

Also, the graphic on page 25 is incorrect.  KY does not have full inclusion.  :x

From the home page of the North American Crossbow Federation site, click on the "Information and Eduction" link in the brown/gray bar above the red bar at the top.  There's a Crossbow 101 video on there that will give more info.

Here's some other links you might be able to get some other info from:

Is Crossbow Hunting a Part of Your Future?
http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2011/08/02/is-crossbow-hunting-a-part-of-your-future/ (http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2011/08/02/is-crossbow-hunting-a-part-of-your-future/)

Bow vs. Crossbow
http://www.oocities.org/gunversation/bowsversuscrossbows/bowsversuscrossbows.htm (http://www.oocities.org/gunversation/bowsversuscrossbows/bowsversuscrossbows.htm)

Bow Wars: The Crossbow Controversy
http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/bowhunting/gear-accessories/2009/04/crossbow-controversy (http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/bowhunting/gear-accessories/2009/04/crossbow-controversy)
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 04, 2013, 11:18:34 AM
Also, another argument that a lot of people overlook is what I like to call the "Mind Your Own Friggin' Business" factor.  ;D

Let's take for example here in KY.  Where I hunt at, the number of deer I can take is limited (as it is in 99.9% of the country).  What difference should it make to anyone else what weapon I decide to harvest these deer with?  :x   I can get 4 deer per year and that's it.  If I want to get all 4 in one day with a gun, I can do it.  If I want to get 1 with a vertical bow, 1 with a crossbow, 1 with a pistol, and 1 with a muzzleloader, I can do that too.  If I want to get all 4 with a crossbow, what should it matter to anyone what I decide to do or when I decide to do it?  Any way you go at it, I can still only take 4 deer/year maximum.

People need to worry a little less about what other people are doing and more about what they themselves are doing and learn to just mind their own friggin' business!  :tickedoff   All I want to do is have the freedom to harvest the deer the way that I see fit.  As long as it is an ethical and clean kill and the meat is utilized, what right should someone have to say that my way is wrong or somehow "less than" their way?
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 04, 2013, 01:17:21 PM
Took me a while to get the numbers together, but here are the harvest numbers for the past 3 years for KY.  To add a little twist, I also figured up the number of days that each "weapon" had available to hunt.  The crossbow numbers though don't take into account the number of people that have methods exemption permits that allow them to hunt the entire archery season with the crossbow.  I also figured up the % of the total harvest that each weapon made up, and based on the number of days that a season was open, the average number of deer taken per day that the season was open.  Since KY doesn't track it, I don't have the number of participants per weapon though.

2010
Male - 59,170
Female - 51,206
Total - 110,376
% Male - 53.6%
% Female - 46.4%
Male Visible - 51,344
Male Not Visible - 7,826
Archery - 16,650
Firearm - 79,026
Muzzleloader - 13,179
Crossbow - 1,521

Archery
     Days Available - 136
     % Total - 15.08%
     Deer/Day - 122.4
Firearm
     Days Available - 20
     % Total - 71.60%
     Deer/Day - 3,951.3
Muzzleloader
     Days Available - 11
     % Total - 11.94%
     Deer/Day - 1,198.1
Crossbow
     Days Available - 66
     % Total - 1.38%
     Deer/Day - 23.0

2011
Male - 65,932
Female - 53,731
Total - 119,663
% Male - 55.1%
% Female - 44.9%
Male Visible - 57,658
Male Not Visible - 8,274
Archery - 18,170
Firearm - 83,363
Muzzleloader - 16,161
Crossbow - 1,969

Archery
     Days Available - 136
     % Total - 15.18%
     Deer/Day - 113.6
Firearm
     Days Available - 20
     % Total - 69.66%
     Deer/Day - 4,168.2
Muzzleloader
     Days Available - 11
     % Total - 13.51%
     Deer/Day - 1,469.2
Crossbow
     Days Available - 66
     % Total - 1.65%
     Deer/Day - 29.8

2012
Male - 73,096
Female - 58,299
Total - 131,395
% Male - 55.6%
% Female - 44.4%
Male Visible - 64,183
Male Not Visible - 8,913
Archery - 18,711
Firearm - 95,613
Muzzleloader - 14,583
Crossbow - 2,488

Archery
     Days Available - 143
     % Total - 14.24%
     Deer/Day - 130.8
Firearm
     Days Available - 20
     % Total - 72.77%
     Deer/Day - 4,780.7
Muzzleloader
     Days Available - 11
     % Total - 11.10%
     Deer/Day - 1,325.7
Crossbow
     Days Available - 73
     % Total - 1.89%
     Deer/Day - 34.1


As you can see by the numbers, there are substantially more people hunting with vertical bows than there are crossbows in KY currently.  Even though the crossbow season is 60 - 70 days long, the regular archery season is approximately 2X that.  The vertical bowhunters currently stand more of a chance of putting a dent in the population than crossbows do.  Crossbows haven't even broken 2% of the total harvest, even though the numbers keep increasing each year.  O0

The seasons this past year here in KY:

Archery
September 1 through January 21

Crossbow
October 1 through October 21
November 10 through December 31

If you'll notice, vertical bowhunters had the entire month of Sept. to themselves.  Why?  The crossbow season also closed on Oct. 21 and reopened on Nov. 10, leaving the pre-rut period entirely to the vertical bowhunters.  Again, why?  The crossbow season closed on Dec. 31, yet the regular archery season continued on through Jan. 21.  What kind of reasoning is this?

There is no biological reason to exclude crossbows from the entire archery season.  The present season structure in KY was set up as a "compromise" between the KDFWR and the anti-crossbow folks several years ago.  Long story short, they didn't want to share "their season" with others.  :tickedoff
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: MOSPARKY on March 04, 2013, 07:13:23 PM
Thanks for the additional info, I got lots of reading to do now.
 I jumped on that wagon early on and for the most part only have one neigh sayer. Lots of folks responded after my initial responce and I have no idea how many of them I may have swayed. All but 2 all all for it.
 One of those 2 worries that it might decrease doe numbers to a point we are back to doe lotteries or reduced limits. I explained that success rates for KY which has a separate season for xbow are very much on par with reg bow season and therefore unless the inclusion of xbows suddenly puts a 1/2 million more hunters in the woods there won't be much change in the herd counts.
 The other guy tried to make several arguements, only one of which had any merit. He shoots a longbow and complained the xbows are too fast as to be unfair. He stated his fastest longbow shoots maybe 180 fps. Out of respect to the site owner, I have not responded to that yet. My words may not be well chosen or accepted. After all, I am trying to be an ambassador for the xbow sport and hunting in general. What I want to say is... lets see if I can clean it up a bit...Dude, you shoot a bow at 180 fps, most modern compounds shoot nearly twice that at about 340 fps and the top of the line commonly available xbows are maybe 400 fps. You ain't crying about compounds at 340 fps but the extra 60 fps is a big deal ?? :idiot2 ( man I gotta import that imoticon over there).
 He complained that you can shoot them from a rest (as in shooting rail on a ladder stand). I just had to tell him what will happen when you shoot off a hard rest and of course trying to be the mentor/ambassador tell him how it can be avoided to some extent.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 04, 2013, 08:54:32 PM
The other guy tried to make several arguements, only one of which had any merit. He shoots a longbow and complained the xbows are too fast as to be unfair. He stated his fastest longbow shoots maybe 180 fps. Out of respect to the site owner, I have not responded to that yet. My words may not be well chosen or accepted. After all, I am trying to be an ambassador for the xbow sport and hunting in general. What I want to say is... lets see if I can clean it up a bit...Dude, you shoot a bow at 180 fps, most modern compounds shoot nearly twice that at about 340 fps and the top of the line commonly available xbows are maybe 400 fps. You ain't crying about compounds at 340 fps but the extra 60 fps is a big deal ?? :idiot2 ( man I gotta import that imoticon over there).
 He complained that you can shoot them from a rest (as in shooting rail on a ladder stand). I just had to tell him what will happen when you shoot off a hard rest and of course trying to be the mentor/ambassador tell him how it can be avoided to some extent.

The vast majority of crossbows shoot less than 400 fps.  But even at 400 fps, it really doesn't give an advantage due to the short power stroke of the crossbow.  The crossbows need higher poundages and higher speeds to make up for the short power stroke.  You really need to post a link to that PDF on the NACF's site.  ;)   Anyone that looks at that with half a brain can see there's no difference in the 2 weapons.

But yeah, he's got a problem with 400 fps crossbows, but doesn't with 360 fps compounds?  :? :uglystupid2   He's a typical anti, just trying to throw out anything and trying to get people to believe it.  ::)

As for shooting off a rest, where's the problem?  :?   You want people to make the most accurate shot as possible, right?  Does he want to make it where someone is wobbling all over the target and gets a bad hit on a deer or hits precisely where they are aiming?  The object is to harvest the deer as cleanly and quickly as possible.  If a rest makes this possible for some people, why is this an issue, especially for younger kids that may not have the arm strength to physically hold the bow up all the time?
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: MOSPARKY on March 05, 2013, 12:21:30 AM
Absolute agreement. My only issue with the rest was from having shot one. If I rested on a hard surface as in my case, a porch rail, shot placement was inconsistant. If however, I rested my elbow on the rail and the xbow on the hand of that supported arm, I was shaving fletches. All this due to the forward recoil presented by a xbow. I didn't mention the possibility of a heavy pad of some sort, as it really didn't suit the point I was trying to make.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: John Andrews on March 05, 2013, 09:28:22 AM
Purists are a dime a dozen. Like you fellas more or less related, there are folks cussing and dissing every faction of archery hunting. It's not noteworthy by any means, just a way for the uninformed and inexperienced to rant.

Many previous bow hunters are forced to use crossbows due to disabilities. This alone is a big factor with the popularity of crossbows. Also, it is a very interesting weapon and clearly presentable for humanely taking game. Crossbows weren't popular through the ages because of being inferior to bows when it came down to warfare and hunting.

Most of us with enough wit to make fair comparisons of what works good do support crossbow hunting.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: MOSPARKY on March 05, 2013, 07:36:48 PM
Well I think my work there may be done. One more detractor raised his head above the berm. This guy openly admitted his reasons were selfish (in his own words) and he didn't want to share the woods with a bunch more nit-wit rifle hunters with crossbows ect. It should also be noted this guy is also a moderator over there and there is every possibility his coments were a devils advocate play to shame other detractors. My only comment was that had at least admitted he was being selfish and I can respect that he can admit it. Beyond that, there is no swaying such a mentality if it is real. Others have joined in with pointing out the drawbacks to useing a crossbow. Them folks are getting quite an education on the pro's and cons of xbows.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 06, 2013, 02:00:27 PM
I've hunted with one for 4 years now.  Last year being the first year that I had the methods exemption permit that allowed me to hunt with it during the entire archery season (screwed up shoulders and back). 

In 2009, I shot a doe on Oct. 1 when the season opened.  It was cool, but I didn't really "get into" it. 
2010 I went a few times, but didn't get anything.

2011 was when I got the big buck on Oct. 8th, which coincidentally was the weekend of the early Youth Gun Season.  The boy didn't want to go, so I decided to go and take the crossbow.

Last year after getting my doctor to sign off on the Methods Exemption permit, I got a doe on 9/1 when "Archery" season opened, an 8pt on 9/15, a doe on 10/13 (Youth Gun Season), and a big turkey on 11/17 (State-wide Gun Season), all with the crossbow.

After hunting with it as much as I did last year, I can tell you that a vertical bow is a whole lot easier!  The friggin' things are heavy!  My Excalibur Equinox, with 4 arrows in the quiver and the sling weighs (if I remember right) 10.75 lbs.  You try holding up 10 lbs with one arm for any length of time!  ::)   They're friggin' wide!  Granted, a recurve limb crossbow like I have is a little wider than a compound crossbow, but still, they're both wider than a vertical bow.  You have to clear out everything around you so that you won't hit anything with the bow and you have to remember that when you shoot, the limbs are going to spring forward, so you have to make sure they won't hit anything when that happens.  That's just hunting with one.  Walking in/out you've got to deal with the width of that thing on your back as you're trying to thread your way through the woods.  They're friggin' loud!  This is one of the toughest things that someone that is used to shooting a vertical bow has to get used to.  It is impossible to get a crossbow down to being as quiet as a vertical bow.  It's just not going to happen!  There's several things that you can do to quieten them down a little, but anyway that you go at it, they're still going to sound like you smacking a tree with a 2x4.  ;D   You've got 1 friggin' shot, PERIOD!  With a vertical bow, if you miss, a lot of times the deer doesn't know what happened because the bow is so quiet that they just stand there.  This let's the person get another arrow, reload, draw, and fire again.  With a crossbow, when you shoot, anything within a 1/4 mile is going to hear that bow go off.  Plus, to reload the thing, with most crossbows being 150+ lbs of draw weight, you've got get out your rope cocker, hook it on the string/bow, put you foot in the stirrup, stand up and draw the cocker to recock the bow, take the rope cocker off, get another arrow, put it on the deck, and then you're ready to fire again.  Between the initial noise of the bow going off and then all of the time/noise/movement that it takes to recock the bow, do you really think you'll get another shot?  ::)   Range estimation is more critical.  Due to the short power stroke of a crossbow vs. a vertical bow, the crossbow has to have a higher draw weight to achieve a comparable speed as the vertical bow.  Also, to keep from damaging the bow, even though the arrows for a crossbow are substantially shorter than a vertical bow, the weight must be about the same.  So you're shooting a short, heavy arrow out of a crossbow that has a short power stroke and a high draw weight.  As an example, my Equinox has a draw weight of 225 lbs and is shooting about 340 fps.  A comparable vertical compound bow, that speed can be reached with a 29" draw length shooting about 60-65 lbs of draw weight.  Because the crossbow has the short power stroke and the short heavy arrow, at longer distances the vertical flight starts to drop off quickly.  This isn't the case with a vertical bow.  The inertia of the arrow is held longer and the vertical drop isn't as drastic as seen with a crossbow.  If someone shoots at a deer that is 45 yds away, but estimates the yardage as 40 yds, with a vertical bow they will still more than likely hit the deer because the drop won't be as much.  With a crossbow, more than likely they'll miss.

The only advantage (that I can think of) that a crossbow has over a vertical bow is that it is already predrawn.  ::)   But honestly, with 65-70% let off on compounds now days, how much of an advantage is that really?  Let's take a 65 lb draw compound with 68% let off.  After the wheels break over you're holding 20.8 lbs at full draw.  75% let off = 16.25 lbs at full draw.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: bohicajuan on March 07, 2013, 04:14:04 AM
The guy may have been playing devils advocate but Im totally convinced the ONLY reason why the compound *ussies are opposed to XBows is selfishness.

Ive got to be honest. One reason I dont hang around traditional archers that much is because THEY think the same way about the compound *ussies.

The F'n tent is big enough for ALL of us, but some gutless wonders just can't resist the temptation to play god.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: BBF on March 09, 2013, 01:30:53 PM
All well and good with the low holding weight on a compound. the problem for us old guys is to GET to that point in the first place. Somewhere along the draw it will be  full 60lb or whatever that gizmo is set to..
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: bohicajuan on March 09, 2013, 11:24:31 PM
Yea, that's true BBF. You need to hire an 18 year old weight lifter to draw it back for you, then he hands it to you! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sooner or Later someone will come up with some type of assisted draw for compounds. You know it's just a matter of time. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: BBF on March 10, 2013, 10:42:02 AM
When that happens the howling wil start anew. I used to be pretty good with a blowgun as a kid :wink:
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: MOSPARKY on March 10, 2013, 05:34:50 PM
alreadt been done. Parker makes a push button draw system powered by co2. push button to cock,push to de-cock.

http://www.parkerbows.com/crossbows.html?action=detail&detailsku=1109 (http://www.parkerbows.com/crossbows.html?action=detail&detailsku=1109)
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: John Andrews on March 11, 2013, 09:12:34 AM
When that happens the howling wil start anew. I used to be pretty good with a blowgun as a kid :wink:
  :wink: Was pretty windy, huh?
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 11, 2013, 02:05:36 PM
The thing I hate about most crossbows is how they have the quiver sit to one side or the other.  Even my Excalibur, the factory mount has it sitting to the side.  Luckily there were a couple of guys on the Excalibur site that were able to figure out how to balance the quiver in the middle of the bow and keep it out of the way, plus keep it from pulling one side of the bow or the other.  O0


(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww184/Big58cal/Hunting/024-1.jpg)

(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww184/Big58cal/Hunting/003-1-3.jpg)
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: John Andrews on March 12, 2013, 08:57:45 AM
 O0 Nice going, BC!
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: bohicajuan on March 13, 2013, 04:32:56 PM
REAL MEN SHOOT RECURVES!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :wink: :twisted:
[/glow][/b]

AND WE'RE SIMPLY AWESOME!! :D ;D :shock: :-P :twisted: :roll: :wink:
[/glow][/b]
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 13, 2013, 09:44:15 PM
REAL MEN SHOOT RECURVES!! ::) ::) ::) ;) >:D

AND WE'RE SIMPLY AWESOME!! :D ;D :o :P >:D ::) ;)


Need I remind you, yet again, that my crossbow IS a recurve.   ::)

(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww184/Big58cal/Crossbow/IMG_3691.jpg)

(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww184/Big58cal/Hunting/016-1-2.jpg)

(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww184/Big58cal/Hunting/005.jpg)
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: BBF on March 13, 2013, 10:52:31 PM
Bo has got his ticker fixed, they didn't work on his memory. :twisted:
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 13, 2013, 11:09:03 PM
Bo has got his ticker fixed, they didn't work on his memory. >:D

No kidding!  ::)   Talk about senior memory memory loss.  ::)
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: bohicajuan on March 14, 2013, 04:14:30 PM
I erase my mind at the end of each week.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: Big58cal on March 14, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
I erase my mind at the end of each week.

That's probably about the only thing keeping you half as sane as you are (with the crap you have to deal with on a daily basis).  ;)   Not everyone in "law enforcement" can be a security guard at a federal petting zoo.  ::) ;D
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: John Andrews on March 15, 2013, 09:32:41 AM

That's probably about the only thing keeping you half as sane as you are (with the crap you have to deal with on a daily basis).  ;)   Not everyone in "law enforcement" can be a security guard at a federal petting zoo.  ::) ;D
  ;D Yep, not everyone!
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: MOSPARKY on March 21, 2013, 06:23:30 PM
Well, I'm back in it. They are almost as bad as we are, but they still got alot to learn. The arguement has morphed from x-bows to baiting.  Around these parts we'd have been argueing Bo's halloween costume by now ;D, they kept it hunting related...go figure !
 Seems the big debate is why are food plots legal while baiting is not...aren't they kinda the same thing ?? Not in my book.
 
 They have barely touched on "to bait (not currently legal) or not to bait". I'm sure they'll get back to that as soon as they define the differance between bait and foodplots.
Title: Re: I stepped in it now
Post by: John Andrews on March 22, 2013, 08:58:10 AM
 ;D Some people just like to argue!