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Author Topic: I stepped in it now  (Read 4588 times)

Offline MOSPARKY

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I stepped in it now
« on: March 03, 2013, 11:22:17 PM »
On a Missouri hunting forum (owned by a seldom active member here)a member recieved a survey from the state. One of the questions was wheither or not crossbows should be allowed during bow season. He in turn posted a topic asking opinions.
 There was a time when I would have answered with a flat NO !! But being a man of reason and BC being the well informed and fact based proponent for the sport, I quickly saw the error of my ways. I now fully support the use of crossbows in areas where legal and support their legalization in areas where they are not.
 I have shot xbows and find I prefer the compound longbows but that's no reason someone else can't use one.
 Most people over there are all for it, but there are a few detractors. This is not an arguement I'm prepared to lose. Thanks to facts posted by mostly Bo and BC here I have shot some pretty good size holes in their arguements.
 Thank you BC and Bo for the wealth of info and points of consideration you have both posted on this topic. They have been an insipiration in my responces.
 If I am to educate the few hold-outs I may need a bit more info. I'll even take any sound con info. Gotta be extra sure of my footing before I over step myself.
 Whatcha got in the way of hard evidence and fact ??
John Andrews is my hero !

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Offline bohicajuan

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 04:02:13 AM »
No problemo amigo! O0 O0

If the compound users try giving you grief, just tell them to give up the compound and go back to recurves and long bows. That will shut most of them up.

But You can also remind them that the Black Widow is made in Missouri!! :wink: :wink: O0 O0
To you gutless cowards and scumbags, who are trying to lie and rewrite history. To those out to commit genocide on the Southern people with your destruction of Confederate monuments and your attacks on Southern heritage and pride. Be happy for now. Because someday when that civil war you wanted starts. I will find you. And I will kill you.

Offline bohicajuan

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 04:05:05 AM »
If you run into some real hard core types who wont support crossbows during the regular bow season, by ALL MEANS invite them over here. Tell them to show how brave and how much guts they really have by trying to shovel that manure here!! :wink: :wink: O0 O0
To you gutless cowards and scumbags, who are trying to lie and rewrite history. To those out to commit genocide on the Southern people with your destruction of Confederate monuments and your attacks on Southern heritage and pride. Be happy for now. Because someday when that civil war you wanted starts. I will find you. And I will kill you.

Offline John Andrews

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 10:50:21 AM »
If you run into some real hard core types who wont support crossbows during the regular bow season, by ALL MEANS invite them over here. Tell them to show how brave and how much guts they really have by trying to shovel that manure here!! :wink: :wink: O0 O0
  O0 Good idea!
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Offline Big58cal

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 10:58:39 AM »
Glad to see you're trying to talk some sense into those folks Mo.  O0

There really is no good reason NOT to allow crossbows during the entire archery season.  The primary argument that the anti's use is that the herd will be decimated.  This has been proven time and again to be untrue.  Statistics show that the harvest rates with crossbows are on par with those of vertical bows.  And any way you go at it, bows of any type are NOT the tool of population control that F&W departments count on, it's guns.

The primary reason TO allow full inclusion of crossbows is recruitment & retention of hunters.  Crossbows have been proven to be an excellent tool to get kids in the woods with.  They take less skill/time to master than a vertical bow and not to mention, don't require as much strength.  Early archery seasons are held in warmer weather than gun seasons, so kids won't freeze when they go out, making their experience more enjoyable.  The same reasons listed above also hold true for hunters later in life.  When it comes time that an older hunter can no longer pull their bow, it's either give up hunting or take up a crossbow.  A lot of older people can't take the cold weather either.  A third aspect of this is the fractured family structure that occurs quite a bit these days.  You have grandparents that hunt (or used to hunt), but a father/mother that doesn't hunt (but isn't opposed to it, and a child that wants to learn.  Full inclusion of crossbows in the archery season will allow the grandfather to take the child out when it's warmer.  O0

Here's some links for further info:

North American Crossbow Federation
http://www.northamericancrossbowfederation.com/

Crossbow Fundamentals
http://www.northamericancrossbowfederation.com/files/CROSSBOW%20FUNDAMENTALS%20-LOW%20RES%206-7-12.pdf

Once the PDF opens up, you can click in the upper left corner on the disc icon and save it to your computer.  If the icon isn't there, go to File, and then Save As to save to your computer.

Of particular interest, notice the chart on page 7.  Notice how the crossbow harvest mimics the vertical bow harvest, with the exception of younger hunters, which had a higher percentage of harvest.  Isn't a successful harvest a good thing instead of a wounding loss?

Also, the graphic on page 25 is incorrect.  KY does not have full inclusion.  :x

From the home page of the North American Crossbow Federation site, click on the "Information and Eduction" link in the brown/gray bar above the red bar at the top.  There's a Crossbow 101 video on there that will give more info.

Here's some other links you might be able to get some other info from:

Is Crossbow Hunting a Part of Your Future?
http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2011/08/02/is-crossbow-hunting-a-part-of-your-future/

Bow vs. Crossbow
http://www.oocities.org/gunversation/bowsversuscrossbows/bowsversuscrossbows.htm

Bow Wars: The Crossbow Controversy
http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/bowhunting/gear-accessories/2009/04/crossbow-controversy
The only purpose of bread is to hold meat!

John Andrews Is My Hero!

In all seriousness, the Marlin is a great rifle, too. I own a Model 60, one of the best rifles ever made.
Brownings are nice, but in terms of quality AND accuarcy AND ruggedness, it's hard to beat the Marlin.
California sucks that's it.

Offline Big58cal

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 11:18:34 AM »
Also, another argument that a lot of people overlook is what I like to call the "Mind Your Own Friggin' Business" factor.  ;D

Let's take for example here in KY.  Where I hunt at, the number of deer I can take is limited (as it is in 99.9% of the country).  What difference should it make to anyone else what weapon I decide to harvest these deer with?  :x   I can get 4 deer per year and that's it.  If I want to get all 4 in one day with a gun, I can do it.  If I want to get 1 with a vertical bow, 1 with a crossbow, 1 with a pistol, and 1 with a muzzleloader, I can do that too.  If I want to get all 4 with a crossbow, what should it matter to anyone what I decide to do or when I decide to do it?  Any way you go at it, I can still only take 4 deer/year maximum.

People need to worry a little less about what other people are doing and more about what they themselves are doing and learn to just mind their own friggin' business!  :tickedoff   All I want to do is have the freedom to harvest the deer the way that I see fit.  As long as it is an ethical and clean kill and the meat is utilized, what right should someone have to say that my way is wrong or somehow "less than" their way?
The only purpose of bread is to hold meat!

John Andrews Is My Hero!

In all seriousness, the Marlin is a great rifle, too. I own a Model 60, one of the best rifles ever made.
Brownings are nice, but in terms of quality AND accuarcy AND ruggedness, it's hard to beat the Marlin.
California sucks that's it.

Offline Big58cal

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 01:17:21 PM »
Took me a while to get the numbers together, but here are the harvest numbers for the past 3 years for KY.  To add a little twist, I also figured up the number of days that each "weapon" had available to hunt.  The crossbow numbers though don't take into account the number of people that have methods exemption permits that allow them to hunt the entire archery season with the crossbow.  I also figured up the % of the total harvest that each weapon made up, and based on the number of days that a season was open, the average number of deer taken per day that the season was open.  Since KY doesn't track it, I don't have the number of participants per weapon though.

2010
Male - 59,170
Female - 51,206
Total - 110,376
% Male - 53.6%
% Female - 46.4%
Male Visible - 51,344
Male Not Visible - 7,826
Archery - 16,650
Firearm - 79,026
Muzzleloader - 13,179
Crossbow - 1,521

Archery
     Days Available - 136
     % Total - 15.08%
     Deer/Day - 122.4
Firearm
     Days Available - 20
     % Total - 71.60%
     Deer/Day - 3,951.3
Muzzleloader
     Days Available - 11
     % Total - 11.94%
     Deer/Day - 1,198.1
Crossbow
     Days Available - 66
     % Total - 1.38%
     Deer/Day - 23.0

2011
Male - 65,932
Female - 53,731
Total - 119,663
% Male - 55.1%
% Female - 44.9%
Male Visible - 57,658
Male Not Visible - 8,274
Archery - 18,170
Firearm - 83,363
Muzzleloader - 16,161
Crossbow - 1,969

Archery
     Days Available - 136
     % Total - 15.18%
     Deer/Day - 113.6
Firearm
     Days Available - 20
     % Total - 69.66%
     Deer/Day - 4,168.2
Muzzleloader
     Days Available - 11
     % Total - 13.51%
     Deer/Day - 1,469.2
Crossbow
     Days Available - 66
     % Total - 1.65%
     Deer/Day - 29.8

2012
Male - 73,096
Female - 58,299
Total - 131,395
% Male - 55.6%
% Female - 44.4%
Male Visible - 64,183
Male Not Visible - 8,913
Archery - 18,711
Firearm - 95,613
Muzzleloader - 14,583
Crossbow - 2,488

Archery
     Days Available - 143
     % Total - 14.24%
     Deer/Day - 130.8
Firearm
     Days Available - 20
     % Total - 72.77%
     Deer/Day - 4,780.7
Muzzleloader
     Days Available - 11
     % Total - 11.10%
     Deer/Day - 1,325.7
Crossbow
     Days Available - 73
     % Total - 1.89%
     Deer/Day - 34.1


As you can see by the numbers, there are substantially more people hunting with vertical bows than there are crossbows in KY currently.  Even though the crossbow season is 60 - 70 days long, the regular archery season is approximately 2X that.  The vertical bowhunters currently stand more of a chance of putting a dent in the population than crossbows do.  Crossbows haven't even broken 2% of the total harvest, even though the numbers keep increasing each year.  O0

The seasons this past year here in KY:

Archery
September 1 through January 21

Crossbow
October 1 through October 21
November 10 through December 31

If you'll notice, vertical bowhunters had the entire month of Sept. to themselves.  Why?  The crossbow season also closed on Oct. 21 and reopened on Nov. 10, leaving the pre-rut period entirely to the vertical bowhunters.  Again, why?  The crossbow season closed on Dec. 31, yet the regular archery season continued on through Jan. 21.  What kind of reasoning is this?

There is no biological reason to exclude crossbows from the entire archery season.  The present season structure in KY was set up as a "compromise" between the KDFWR and the anti-crossbow folks several years ago.  Long story short, they didn't want to share "their season" with others.  :tickedoff
The only purpose of bread is to hold meat!

John Andrews Is My Hero!

In all seriousness, the Marlin is a great rifle, too. I own a Model 60, one of the best rifles ever made.
Brownings are nice, but in terms of quality AND accuarcy AND ruggedness, it's hard to beat the Marlin.
California sucks that's it.

Offline MOSPARKY

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 07:13:23 PM »
Thanks for the additional info, I got lots of reading to do now.
 I jumped on that wagon early on and for the most part only have one neigh sayer. Lots of folks responded after my initial responce and I have no idea how many of them I may have swayed. All but 2 all all for it.
 One of those 2 worries that it might decrease doe numbers to a point we are back to doe lotteries or reduced limits. I explained that success rates for KY which has a separate season for xbow are very much on par with reg bow season and therefore unless the inclusion of xbows suddenly puts a 1/2 million more hunters in the woods there won't be much change in the herd counts.
 The other guy tried to make several arguements, only one of which had any merit. He shoots a longbow and complained the xbows are too fast as to be unfair. He stated his fastest longbow shoots maybe 180 fps. Out of respect to the site owner, I have not responded to that yet. My words may not be well chosen or accepted. After all, I am trying to be an ambassador for the xbow sport and hunting in general. What I want to say is... lets see if I can clean it up a bit...Dude, you shoot a bow at 180 fps, most modern compounds shoot nearly twice that at about 340 fps and the top of the line commonly available xbows are maybe 400 fps. You ain't crying about compounds at 340 fps but the extra 60 fps is a big deal ?? :idiot2 ( man I gotta import that imoticon over there).
 He complained that you can shoot them from a rest (as in shooting rail on a ladder stand). I just had to tell him what will happen when you shoot off a hard rest and of course trying to be the mentor/ambassador tell him how it can be avoided to some extent.
John Andrews is my hero !

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Offline Big58cal

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 08:54:32 PM »
The other guy tried to make several arguements, only one of which had any merit. He shoots a longbow and complained the xbows are too fast as to be unfair. He stated his fastest longbow shoots maybe 180 fps. Out of respect to the site owner, I have not responded to that yet. My words may not be well chosen or accepted. After all, I am trying to be an ambassador for the xbow sport and hunting in general. What I want to say is... lets see if I can clean it up a bit...Dude, you shoot a bow at 180 fps, most modern compounds shoot nearly twice that at about 340 fps and the top of the line commonly available xbows are maybe 400 fps. You ain't crying about compounds at 340 fps but the extra 60 fps is a big deal ?? :idiot2 ( man I gotta import that imoticon over there).
 He complained that you can shoot them from a rest (as in shooting rail on a ladder stand). I just had to tell him what will happen when you shoot off a hard rest and of course trying to be the mentor/ambassador tell him how it can be avoided to some extent.

The vast majority of crossbows shoot less than 400 fps.  But even at 400 fps, it really doesn't give an advantage due to the short power stroke of the crossbow.  The crossbows need higher poundages and higher speeds to make up for the short power stroke.  You really need to post a link to that PDF on the NACF's site.  ;)   Anyone that looks at that with half a brain can see there's no difference in the 2 weapons.

But yeah, he's got a problem with 400 fps crossbows, but doesn't with 360 fps compounds?  :? :uglystupid2   He's a typical anti, just trying to throw out anything and trying to get people to believe it.  ::)

As for shooting off a rest, where's the problem?  :?   You want people to make the most accurate shot as possible, right?  Does he want to make it where someone is wobbling all over the target and gets a bad hit on a deer or hits precisely where they are aiming?  The object is to harvest the deer as cleanly and quickly as possible.  If a rest makes this possible for some people, why is this an issue, especially for younger kids that may not have the arm strength to physically hold the bow up all the time?
The only purpose of bread is to hold meat!

John Andrews Is My Hero!

In all seriousness, the Marlin is a great rifle, too. I own a Model 60, one of the best rifles ever made.
Brownings are nice, but in terms of quality AND accuarcy AND ruggedness, it's hard to beat the Marlin.
California sucks that's it.

Offline MOSPARKY

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Re: I stepped in it now
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 12:21:30 AM »
Absolute agreement. My only issue with the rest was from having shot one. If I rested on a hard surface as in my case, a porch rail, shot placement was inconsistant. If however, I rested my elbow on the rail and the xbow on the hand of that supported arm, I was shaving fletches. All this due to the forward recoil presented by a xbow. I didn't mention the possibility of a heavy pad of some sort, as it really didn't suit the point I was trying to make.
John Andrews is my hero !

Deer Hunting Today - Powered By Gut Pile Style:  The source for Whitetail Deer Hunting - Anti Peta - Squirrel Hunting - Bow Hunting - Bear Hunting - Coon Hunting - Fishing - Firearms - Outdoor News - Cleaning Game -  fishing and more at www.gutpilestyle.comwww.DeerHuntingToday.com www.WildChildHuntingWear.com

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